If you sleep eight hours, then almost two hours you have – in fragments, in total two hours – sleep without dreams, and six hours sleep with dreams. It has been experimented with, now we know. There are instruments which give the indication of whether the person is dreaming or not dreaming. Even without instruments, if you watch his eyelids, you can know immediately. If his eyes are moving inside the lids, he is dreaming – because he is seeing things, movement. If the eyes are static, not moving, and the lids show no movement of the eyes inside, that means dreams have stopped. No sophisticated instruments are needed. But now we have sophisticated instruments which make a graph when the person is dreaming, when the person is not dreaming – just like a cardiogram.
They disturbed a few sleepers when they were dreaming; they would disturb them immediately, they would wake them up. They would allow them only those two hours of nondreaming. In the morning they were utterly exhausted, lustless, with no desire to live even. This was strange, because all the old yoga in India, in Tibet, in China – different schools and different people not connected with each other at all – they have always been saying, “If you can have two hours of dreamless sleep, that is enough nourishment, enough to rejuvenate you.” It has not been found true. But if you disturb those two hours when they are not dreaming, and allow them those six hours of dreaming, in the morning they get up so fresh, so young, so rejuvenated, so full of life and juice and so eager to live.
When for the first time it was discovered, it was a shock. Dreams are absolutely necessary for these people. For what reason? – they have not been able to find the reason. They will never be able to find it because that reason can be found only through deep meditation, there is no other way to find it. By psychological experiments they will not be able to find out the reason.
But through meditation something happens which is dreamless, sleepless. Both are not there; neither the dream is there nor is the sleep there. You are fully awake. The body is fast asleep in a deep rest, but your consciousness is absolutely cloudless. There is no sleep. Inside like a flame you are alert, awake, watching – that there is nothing to watch! The body is asleep and there is nothing to watch. But the watcher is.
You can only watch the watcher. You can only observe the observer. You can only be aware of your awareness. But there is no sleep, no dream. And in the morning you are as fresh as it is possible to be. So the psychologists will not be able, they have not yet been able and will never be able to know, unless they start moving toward meditation. And there seems to be no sign of their movement. In fact they are very antagonistic to meditation, and I can understand why. They are antagonistic to meditation because meditation can dissolve all your problems, can dissolve all your psychic anxieties, and with them goes the whole profession of the psychologist.
Just as the priest has been afraid that God should not be doubted, the politician has been afraid that the priest should not be doubted; because if God is doubted, the priest is gone, his priesthood is gone. And there are millions of priests in the world: Hindus, Catholics, Jews, rabbis, ministers, missionaries, pundits, imams, shankaracharyas – millions of priests in the world who depend on a single concept of God. Drop that idea and all these will be nowhere. Right now they have great prestige, power. Who will be the pope when there is no God? What will be his position? This pope, this Polack, will have to go back to Poland. And Poland is communist now. He will become a laughingstock.